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The Lifetime Cash Flow Through Real Estate Investing podcast, hosted by Rod Khleif, is a staple in the real estate world. Known for his high-energy delivery and deep experience with over 2,000 apartment units, Rod typically steers conversations toward multifamily strategies and mindset mastery. But when he invited Andy Weiner, the conversation shifted into new territory. It delved deeply into the mechanics, culture, and long-term benefits of retail real estate.
For Andy, retail wasn’t a discovery. It was a birthright.
“I was born into retailing,” he told Rod. “My grandfather started a chain of clothing stores in Houston in the 1920s with the name Weiners. We had 159 stores at one point. I ended up running operations—real estate, HR, logistics, systems, finance. So I was a retailer and I loved retail. I’m a student of retail.”
That early immersion shaped his approach. In 1997, Andy left the family business and launched RockStep Capital. The firm has since built or acquired over 10 million square feet of shopping centers across 11 states.
“We’re vertically integrated,” Andy said. “A team of 75 people. We’re operators. We love the business.”
The name “RockStep” is a functional philosophy.
“It’s a swing dancing term,” Andy explained. “When you’re doing couples swing dancing, you rock step when you change direction. One to three, one to three, rock, step, ball, pivot, change. We use that as a metaphor in our business. We want to be light on our feet. We want to be nimble. We want to listen to the rhythm of the industry.”
RockStep operates with a set of 25 behavioral principles, which the company refers to as “RockSteps.” These aren’t aspirational statements posted on a wall. They are lived values.
“Every Monday at 10 a.m., the whole company gets on a Teams call. We pick one RockStep, someone writes an essay about what it means to them, and then we discuss it. People are randomly called on to share their views. It keeps the values alive. It’s how we build trust.”
When asked about the impact of Amazon and the rise of e-commerce, Andy offered a grounded but optimistic view.
“Amazon has no doubt dramatically affected the retail shopping center sector. It’s taken trips away from shopping centers, and it has forced a lot of weaker retailers out of business. But the tenants that are still here, they’ve learned how to compete. They’ve got great apps, they’ve integrated e-commerce with their physical stores, and they’re holding or even growing their market share.”
He shifted the spotlight from Amazon to another group of disruptors.
“People talk about Amazon, but the real story is off-price. TJ Maxx, Ross, Five Below, those companies are the ones that changed the game. They can do $10 to $20 million in a single store, and they do it without carrying debt. That’s more than what many department stores do, with a fraction of the overhead.”
Despite the mainstream narrative, Andy doesn’t believe malls are dead. In fact, he sees them as some of the best cash flow opportunities in the market.
“There’s about $50 billion in insolvent mall debt right now. We’re buying these properties at 15, 16, even 17 caps. When you finance at 7 percent and keep your NOI stable, you’re looking at 20 to 25 percent cash-on-cash returns. That’s the math. These are not distressed flips. These are cash flow machines.”
Not every mall requires a complete overhaul.
“Some of them just need steady operations. We bought a mall in Manhattan, Kansas with $2 million of NOI. We paid $12 million for it. We didn’t have to change much. It just keeps performing. In other cases, we shrink the footprint and modernize it. We’re doing that in Hot Springs, Arkansas—keeping the anchor tenants, tearing out the interior, and adding a grocery store and a big national brand. When we’re done, it’ll look like a power center.”
RockStep has a distinctive habit of involving local investors in every deal. This isn’t about spreading capital risk. It’s about creating leverage with city stakeholders and building political capital.
“We believe you can reduce risk and increase returns by getting local business leaders to be part of the equity,” Andy said. “They help with entitlements, signage, property taxes, and relationships with city hall. When you’ve got the sheriff or the former mayor on your side, everything moves faster. You’re not fighting bureaucracy. You’re calling friends.”
He shared a striking example from New Orleans.
“We bought the Riverwalk from Howard Hughes. Because of our investor group, we got a $1.5 million per year economic development annuity from the city. That wasn’t in the model. I didn’t do it. Our investors knew the right people and got it done.”
RockStep doesn’t just avoid Wall Street for equity. It does the same for debt.
“We don’t use CMBS. We don’t use insurance company debt,” Andy said. “We work with community banks. That gives us flexibility and responsiveness.”
That structure was especially useful during the pandemic.
“When COVID hit, every single one of our properties was technically in default. We had to renegotiate over 600 leases in 60 days. If we had institutional lenders, we would have been stuck. But every community bank we work with got on the phone and worked with us. Not one lender pushed back.”
Rod closed the conversation by asking what advice Andy would give to investors looking to expand beyond multifamily.
Andy was clear: “I think residential should be in every investor’s portfolio. But when you’re ready to diversify, retail has real advantages. There’s positive leverage. You’re buying below replacement cost. There’s very little new supply being built. And you’re working with sophisticated tenants who understand how to operate.”
For those willing to learn the retail landscape, there’s real opportunity—and real stability.